Across the Pond: Elliott Manning, Founder of Kayman Recruitment

Across the Pond is an interview series of recruitment leaders who have expanded into the US from the UK and elsewhere. The series is brought to you by Ascen, an all-in-one employer of record and back office platform for recruitment companies operating in the US. In this installment, we spoke with Elliott Manning, Founder and Managing Director of Kayman Recruitment, who talks about launching and growing his recruitment business in the US, plus lessons learned helping other recruitment agencies grow their US recruitment teams.

Francis Larson:

Elliott, thank you so much for being on the Across the Pond show. First off, we'd love to hear who you are and what you do.

Elliott Manning:

I'm Elliott Manning, Managing Director of a company called Kayman Recruitment. We've operated now in the US physically for the last five years. I went over there in 2017/2018 to get a bit of a feel for the recruitment industry and it all start then.

Francis Larson:

Seeing your background, you’ve founded several businesses in the recruitment industry. We'd love to hear about those other companies.

Elliott Manning:

Kayman is my initial business and that was set up about 10, 11 years ago covering the recruitment to recruitment market. So we've been around for a while, focused in London as a business and also into the US. So we've done a lot in that space. And after that, I bought into another business, which is an engineering recruitment company, which is predominantly UK-focused. And then last year I acquired a company called Hunted that has been in the game for maybe about, I'm going to say six to eight years as a large platform in the industry that was pretty well-known and that keeps me very busy on top of the other things as well. So, I do get involved in lots of other things like consultancy for businesses that are looking to expand in the US and have become, I'd like to say, a little bit of an expert just due to my own failings, I suppose, in a way and also my own research that I've done over the last few years.

Francis Larson:

Interesting to hear your own failings. Was that from setting up Kayman?

Elliott Manning:

Yeah. I thought it was going to be a very challenging position to be in when it came to setting up in the US, it wasn't. To be honest with you, it's not a complicated place. However, you need to know the contacts and you need to have the right information to get things done the right way. Once you've got that, then it's very easy. I think the biggest thing that was my challenge and what I struggled with was getting the right contacts to do the right job to help me do things in the right way in the US. And I learned the hard way, but that's why I can now advise businesses otherwise so that they can avoid the same mistakes and the same directions that I was potentially going in that I should have avoided and done things differently.

Francis Larson:

Yeah. When you started Kayman, it sounds like you went to the US a few times to set things up. Did you have a big team on the ground, or was it mostly from the UK?

Elliott Manning:

No, I was in the UK, but in 2018, I think I went over 10 times to New York, really, really self-invested in making sure that we had everything, I wouldn't say everything set up over there in the right way, but I suppose more for me to really learn and understand and do the right research in the market and try and get to grips of it all in the best way possible.

So that was the main thing for me. I did travel a lot and just, again, really organically invested my time for the business to make sure that I knew exactly what I'm getting myself into. And it was quite a good thing because we got into the US market before most others thought it was a big thing. Obviously, a lot of firms were over there, but nowhere near as much as it is now.

Francis Larson:

Right. So, did you eventually hire a team based in the US, or has it been mostly from the UK or sort of split?

Elliott Manning:

No, I made my first hire in 2019 over there just before we had the run-up to COVID, which was great timing. And ultimately, for me, it was a challenging time. I learned a lot about the US government and I really utilized the offerings that they could provide and then I was telling businesses, "Why aren't you doing the same? If the UK can do it, why can't you do it in the US with your entity over there?" And yeah, I utilized those services to support my team. And I think we got up to it before COVID. We had a team of three in the US that allowed us to get things kicked off.

Francis Larson:

You've been in the recruitment industry for a long time and hiring recruiters in US. What kind of things have you found as a challenge in hiring people based in the US? Has it been different than what you've had to do hiring recruiters in the UK?

Elliott Manning:

Not anymore, no, but in the past, yes. I've done both. I've sent people over from the UK to the US via visas and I've predominantly hired US citizens. If you hire a UK recruiter to go over there, then they can work the way that you need them to work, et cetera. They've been embedded into your business and it's a great thing to have. However, if you hire US recruiters, there is a little bit of an extra challenge to get them up and running to work in the way that you want them to. And US recruitment companies don't necessarily operate, and everyone kind of knows this, in the same way that British firms may do in the whole 360 model of recruitment.

So it was a case of trying to find and understand where those businesses were, who they were, where they were, and how they operated to make sure that we were taking people out of the right companies. I know loads of recruitment firms that have hired in the US who unfortunately have brought people in that haven't got the right skill set to do the job that they wanted and had too high expectations on them. And as much as I had that initially, I had to learn very quickly where we needed to go and get our talent from if they were coming from the US itself.

Francis Larson:

Was the lack of talent really primarily because they were not 360?

Elliott Manning:

I think so because we're so used to that way of working in the UK, right? Yes, we do hire resources, yes, we do hire account managers and BDMs to do the jobs, but predominantly, it's, I'd say, about 80, 90% of the way the UK firms work on a 360 model, whereas it's 80, 90% of the way the US firms work on a 180 model. So it was really trying to just come to grips with that. I think now coming in 2024 into 2025, they all are varied now, if I'm honest with you.

A lot of US firms do have 360 recruiters in there, but the salespeople are much more valuable now to the British firms because business development, which has relied upon from a 360 recruiter, is necessary at the minute. So, it's all working well now in a good balance, but back then it was very challenging to get the right people on board. And most firms that were in the US wanted expats from the UK because they had that 360 model experience. And as I said to you, I do think that's now changing.

Francis Larson:

What about US clients? You've started to find more 360 recruiters, you've been able to scale that model a little bit. Client-wise, are clients in the US different from the way they are in the UK, or have you noticed that you've had to learn anything new about operating a recruitment business in the US?

Elliott Manning:

They operate in the same way, if I'm going to be honest with you. I've not found it difficult working with US businesses. Okay, let me start again. I found it very difficult explaining to US businesses what we do in our particular business and how we operate and how we can support them because it's not such a big thing in the States. Whereas if I made a phone call in the UK to bring on a client or to talk to them about what we do, they understood and knew what it was straight away.

So, I felt the US client base of businesses were a little bit further behind than the likes of firms in the UK or even Australia. So that was a challenge in itself and it's really also understanding the operational side of things, where they are located. Obviously, the US is such a big place. To do business development in the US can be quite challenging if you don't have a plan. And that's one thing that I strongly suggest to every business owner is make sure you have a plan of attack geographically if you're going over to the US.

Francis Larson:

How did you go about doing that? Is that just the time zone thing or was it a cultural thing? What about the geography was so challenging?

Elliott Manning:

I would say it's, for me, not time zone, no. I think it's just making sure you are working within one area and sticking with it. So for example, I'm consulting a firm at the minute who have some clients in Florida, they have some clients in North Carolina, and they're like, "Yeah, but we have these clients also in Atlanta and Texas." You can't focus on four states. They're too big.

And I've alluded to the fact that then he needs to focus predominantly on just Florida and be a specialist in Florida, own the Florida market, be the go-to in Florida and that's your strategy for now and just hone in on that market in that area in itself. And once you've done that and you feel like you've maximized it, then try to select another state that you can use, but utilize it for your business's growth and bring in more people to support it. But he was trying to do everything everywhere. And you're not a specialist in the market without really identifying and honing in on one particular area.

Francis Larson:

What kind of firm was this, if you don't mind me asking? What kind of specialist?

Elliott Manning:

That was a firm that predominantly focuses on construction and engineering.

Francis Larson:

Right. Is that because focusing on a specific region, it's easier client-wise to get referrals for regional stuff, maybe it's easier to have a pool of candidates? Other than just pure focus, are there any other reasons why focusing on a region is beneficial?

Elliott Manning:

Not particularly other than what you've just said. Making sure that you've got the network covered, you've got a network of candidates within the market, you've got all the client understanding and research and options in that state itself and you work it. It's like when you're a London recruiter, you focus on London. If you're a Florida recruiter, you focus on Florida. I don't see how, in my opinion, those that are really successful are doing anything more than that. There's a guy that I know who runs a recruitment firm in North Carolina in Charlotte, and he's a very, very successful biller and does near on a million dollars a year individually.

And I said to him, "Where's your market?" He's like, "In North Carolina." I was like, "Where?" He's like, "In these particular areas." I think somebody was maybe Charlotte, for example. I was like, "Why don't you expand and go elsewhere?" He's like, "Well, this is where my client base is. They only come to me. They know I'm here. They know that I focus on this market and I have the network and when they need someone they call me." And that's why he's billing more than most.

Francis Larson:

Every location might have a specific industry sometimes like Charlotte, banking. I wonder if this was a finance recruiter…

Elliott Manning:

Manufacturing, engineering, which obviously, is a big market for it there, right?

Francis Larson:

So focusing on different regions, what do you see right now as the best state(s)? If somebody is coming in completely cold to the US, they really want to do it, they're committed to growing their recruitment company in the US, where do you think they should start if they know nothing about where to start in the US?

Elliott Manning:

I would strongly suggest that they look at their client base initially and where their clients are located. So for example, if they're doing tech, where are their tech clients based? Is it in Texas? Is that where most of them have offices or is it in Florida? Is it in Atlanta? Where is that base? And I think once they understand that, the decision really from there on is to map out the market and see how big is the opportunity for them to be focused on that state in that specific market that they do. If they can see there's a lot of opportunity there, then go over and go and meet them, go and invest in it, and go and see for yourself if that's where you believe there's a good location of clients for you to really maximize.

That's what I would say is the first call that I have told other businesses to do. If they haven't done that and they're like, "Look, we want to find a recruiter that can help us grow our business in the US," then I say, "Follow the talent." So if they can find the head of US for them that's based in Tampa, for example, who knows their market, has a network, then follow where the talent is in a different aspect. So number one, either follow where your client base is and where you can see most opportunity being maximized. Number two is follow the talent and where they are located and utilize them to build it out with you and for you. Because even if you use the talent side of it, you can always travel within an hour or two to certain states to meet your clients, but you can't necessarily get talent in those states.

Francis Larson:

So speaking of talent, a lot of recruitment companies, a lot of our customers and folks that have expanded to the US as a recruitment agency, a lot of times they'll be in the UK, they'll have no one in the US for a long time. When dp you suggest somebody starts hiring a head of contract or a head of recruitment or really any role in the US, is it from day one? Is there a certain type of role that they need? Is it just a recruiter/salesperson/360 person or is it more of an executive? Where do they start for getting somebody on the ground in the US?

Elliott Manning:

We've helped businesses in both setups. We've helped firms that have no established business in the US and have basically hired a recruiter in the US who has a network and the ability to partner with that company in the UK to help them grow the US entity. They're buying them as an asset to the business with a network and a client base already that they're basically buying with that recruiter. So we've had firms that we've helped through on that basis and it's helped them grow and maximize the opportunity with that person in the US. It's a great setup to have, and it makes things happen a hell of a lot quicker, but there is, obviously, a risk element to it that could fail. The other side of it is we've worked with recruitment firms that have got... I'll give you an example.

I've got a client in Austin, they got their contractor booked to something like $30,000 a week from the UK, which was phenomenal, loads of runners out. It was a great setup for them. They then decided, "Okay, now we're making some good revenue from the UK. We are going to bring in two or three recruiters in the US to come in and take that over, but also who can add the value at the same time and help us then start growing and expanding." Unfortunately, it's up to the business' risk capability. If you've got money coming in in the UK and you can afford to reinvest it in hiring in the US, then do it. If you want to hire a recruiter to make things happen a lot quicker and invest in them to do it for you, then you can do that. We've helped both.

Francis Larson:

Yeah, we definitely see that as well. The tiny firms, the two to three-person shops in the UK, they definitely try to get their contract book in the US to 30,000, 40,000 before hiring folks in the states. But if you're a bigger company in the UK, for instance, yeah, why not just get somebody else's book straight away and get a recruiter who has relationships? That's good advice. Do you find that recruiter compensation is structured differently in the US, maybe it's more expensive than the UK, different commission plans, et cetera?

Elliott Manning:

I just told someone this morning that I didn't necessarily think that their structure was competitive because they're still implementing things that they would do in the UK, which isn't something that you need to do in the US. If you take a threshold, for example, and a commission structure, let's just say they work in technology recruitment and they've got a threshold where they have to do $50,000 minimum before they see a commission, I don't see the reason why you're doing that because an average fee in the US in tech is 20 to $30,000, for example.

So if they do that one placement in a quarter, they're pretty much paying for their own costs for a good certain period of time that I don't see why you need to put a threshold in place as well. So there are things like that that I think UK firms are still implementing that are making their business unattractive, making it harder to see the income, for example. Whereas other firms are more interested in attracting the talent and making things a little bit more generous, like stretching their commission structures out but not putting a threshold in. So staggering the percentages on what they could earn, but based on the fact that there's no threshold, people still find that more appealing than others.

Francis Larson:

Yeah. Wow. So changing gears a little bit. So Hunted, that you recently bought, that's still operating or is it going to be re-launched?

Elliott Manning:

No, it went into insolvency, unfortunately. So I purchased all the assets of the business and then we spent the last now seven months roughly, maybe more, just redeveloping and redesigning it. I have sent an invite to 30, 40 companies myself that I wanted to sign up before we go live in the next couple of weeks. It's a platform where if you've got offices, and I've got companies on there that have got offices in London, LA, maybe in Dubai, then going back to New York, and no one knows where they're located or what they're doing. So Hunted allows them to showcase their business services, their business of who they are and what they're all about. But then the most attractive thing about Hunted is that it's also a job board. So those companies that are showcasing who they are and what they can bring to the market to these recruiters, they've also got advertised jobs on there at the same time so they can attract talent.

And I think in the last week, I've had three people reach out to me who are in the US who have all found a job via Hunted previously. They were looking at companies to find jobs in the US and they pulled up a list of firms that were over there, they got loads of information, and they applied to work for them. So I've bought Hunted back, updated it, modernized it, added a lot more features onto it. And I've also put what's called a supplier directory. If you're in the US or in the UK and you're lacking suppliers, whether it's accountants, law firms, CRMs, everything, then I'm building a supplier directory on there as well so that it's got everything in one destination.

Francis Larson:

So it's really a global network in a way.

Elliott Manning:

It's basically built to be the destination for recruitment. I've partnered with some really incredible people on it, like a guy called Hisham who's got a huge podcast in the UK and a training platform called Hector. I've partnered with The Realest Recruiter in the US, Joel. He's going to work with me on this and do what he does best. And the connections that I've created through my industry over the years has allowed me to really build a nice platform that everyone will benefit from.

Francis Larson:

That's really cool. One of the things that I've noticed is in the industry in the US. A lot of times, these associations, at least in the US, they're super regional. It's very focused on the Northeast Staffing Association or the American Staffing Association, and there are not so many global networks. There's really not. Interestingly enough, the UK has many of these recruitment networks, way more than the US.

Elliott Manning:

There's only a couple in the States. I was actually meant to go to one, I think it was earlier this year, and they canceled it and it was my opportunity to see what it was all about. In the UK, I'm partnered and work with a firm called The Recruitment Network here who are pretty big in what they do, but they've got a huge UK network and just a few firms in the US and other locations. But this isn't like that. I'm going to be honest with you. This isn't a networking group as such. This is more of an opportunity for firms that aren't in those networking groups to be a part of something themselves that they can still get the same kind of information from online.

Francis Larson:

Are you going to be doing events and things like that, or is it more going to be online?

Elliott Manning:

It's online. I might attend events and have appearances at events of some sort, but ultimately, this is a platform that's online for more convenience and efficiency for firms and also for recruiters that need privacy to find jobs outside of LinkedIn and they want more information on companies that you can't see on LinkedIn. This is for that.

Francis Larson:

Do you think Hunted is the online version of Kayman or are they very separate?

Elliott Manning:

No, they're very separate businesses. Kayman is people doing recruitment and the old-school method of headhunting, business development, et cetera. It's very much a recruitment business. Hunted is an online platform that in essence works as a job board/an information directory within an IT capacity. So very different. There's no one on the phone at Hunted picking up the phone and finding candidates and trying to place them. It doesn't work like that.

Francis Larson:

How do you see the industry evolving? Do you think it will go more to job boards like Hunted or more for recruitment companies like Kayman? Do you see both will coexist, or do you think eventually it'll be a lot more on the internet?

Elliott Manning:

I think it will be an internet thing. I have a podcast, I had a guy on it last week who does AI and he's got an AI software called EQ Buddy. It's incredible. He's from San Francisco. He was born in London. And the platform is unbelievable. So I think that a lot of it's going to be more AI-centric focused where all these firms are selling all these lead generation platforms and all these outsourcing opportunities. I think AI is going to be the next biggest thing that is going to change our market.

And I believe with Hunted as well, where the industry right now in recruitment is so international and firms predominantly from the UK are trying to get themselves over to the US and Dubai and Australia and Germany and Switzerland and Canada, I think that Hunted is necessary because it doesn't put anybody on the map otherwise. And if you're not following a company on LinkedIn, you're never going to know what they're doing.

Francis Larson:

Wrapping up a bit. If you're talking to customers for Kayman or for Hunted, they're trying to expand into the US; what are a few pieces of advice you would have for them?

Elliott Manning:

Talk to people and get some advice and help, in my opinion. Don't try and figure it out on your own. I don't think that you're going to get very far if you try and figure out and think you're in a position where you have the ability to do that. There is a structural process to setting up in the US that once you know what it is, it's very easy to do. And I think if you can get some advice from people that are actually doing it and have done it and can help out, I think that's going to be your first port of call. The other side of it is, once you've done that and figured that out is put a plan together and stick to it. If you're going to send people over from the UK over there, put a plan that's structured in place that set goals and try and make it happen.

But you need to speak to immigration lawyers and really understand what you're getting yourself into so you can pre-prepare before you actually do that because otherwise, you're just stalling the process when you hit that number, and you've got where you want to be, you're not ready to go because you've not done anything. So I think that's something to consider as well. But my last bit of advice for recruitment firms trying to get to the US is don't hesitate to hire recruiters in the States who have a valuable network that will get to where you want to be a lot quicker than doing it through the UK. And it could take potentially a year if you did it that way, which is fine, but if you want to jump into the market now, then don't hesitate to do it that way.

Francis Larson:

It totally makes sense. We see the same thing. The firms that do the best in the States understand how big the opportunity is. They know that the market is there. So even if it's slow, even if they need to take a little bit of risk by hiring maybe somebody expensive in the US, it pays for itself five times over in the first two years. I think that's a great approach to sticking to the plan, since the market's there.

Elliott Manning:

Yeah. One thing, Francis, someone said to me recently who's in Austin, he basically made something really clear, "If you're going to bring people over from the UK to the US, then you've got to consider the fact that they've never lived there, they've got to settle down, they've got to find their feet, they're in the honeymoon period of being in the US. And for six months, there's a big distraction because of that.

So are you prepared to consider the fact that that's going to potentially happen or you've got the option to find someone that lives in the US that's settled there, that has their life there, that has their income there, their family there, and can start work on day one and just get on with things just as normal as they would do anywhere in the world? But when you're sending people over, you've got to consider there's a period where that is going to be a distraction initially for you and for the business.

Francis Larson:

Well, great advice, and you've obviously learned it from real experience. So, Elliott, thank you so much for talking to us and we hope to talk to you again soon.

Elliott Manning:

Thank you, Francis. No problem.